19. Always There When You Call - Erin Howell

Erin Howell is a certified EMT and one of the owners and operators of Mountain Mamas Outfitter. Today we are talking about mental health in the first responder community and some of the challenges that Emergency Medical Services face, which is unknown to many people. We will also be talking about how Erin and her partner Sierra are using their guiding company to implement wilderness therapy trips for first responders and how they are able to offer these trips with no charge to the amazing people who keep our communities safe.

Visit their websites: www.mountainmamasoutfitter.com www.montanawildernessretreat.com

Email Erin Directly: Erin@mountainmamasoutfitter.com

I don't think I've ever met a group of people who feel more. All of these people that I've worked with, all of the first responders that I've met, they just have a passion. I was on call where there was a baby involved the impact that that call had on me for two years, like it has taken a long time for me to really come over the top of that call. I did ask. One day. I said, I don't know how I'm ever going to not feel on some of these calls. And he goes, You're not ever supposed to stop feeling. And there's been so many times where we can't do anything on the ambulance except for hold their hand. And that's what you do. You hold their hand. If you can make that fear go down even in the slightest, you've done your job. Hey, what's up, everybody? It's Erin, and it's another episode of the Simply Overcoming Podcast. Thank you for gracing us with your presence today. If you're here, it's where you're meant to be. Today's episode is one that I've been looking forward to for a little while now. And the reason why is because I'm going to be talking to Aaron Howell, and she works in EMS, and so does my wife. They have something in common, and we're going to be talking about the first responder community and mental health. And Aaron has some really awesome things to say about that. Aaron is also a coowner of a company Mountain Mama's Outfitters, and you're an owner and operator. Is that correct? Aaron? Correct. First of all, Aaron, thank you for being willing to be on the podcast today. I know you're having a busy day, but taking a little time to come and talk to us. I just really appreciate that. I appreciate you having me here. So I was talking to you, I don't know, a week and a half ago, and you were telling me that EMS was not really your first choice in what you were going to do with your life, and somehow you were just thrown right into it. So how did that happen? Well, I actually was a chef for a lot of years, and I love to be in the kitchen. I have worked in a number of really nice restaurants in Whitefish, Montana and all the way down to North Georgia and loved it. I really do love being in the kitchen, but I had a couple of things happen and my husband passed away, and after that happened, I was at a crossroads, and my best friend and I had been for years and years. We've always hiked, we've always rafted and done river floats and dreamt about being paid to go, do the things that we love to do and so not having to go to a nine to five job in the kitchen. It's not nine to five. Sometimes it's nine or 100 in the morning. Just dreamt us at doing something that we really, truly loved and being outdoors all the time. And so I moved to Georgia after my husband passed away and I knew that I was coming back to Montana. I didn't know exactly when but knew I was coming back to Montana and knew that there was going to be some changes and didn't know exactly what that was going to look like. So there was just a crossroads. And then at the same time, my best friend was kind of in a crossroads in her life as well. She had finished her degree in exercise science and wasn't sure if she wanted to go to PT school yet or not, but wasn't quite sure what she was going to do with her degree. And when we got to talking about it, we're like, Well, why don't we do what we had originally planned? And one of the things that we were constantly getting on our social media platforms were comments from ladies that would say, we wish we could do what you do. We would post all of our pictures on the different adventures that we would take, and our kids came with us all the time. Mine right now are ten and 13, and hers are 14 and almost 16. So they have been on the river since they were babies. They've been camping since they were babies. They've been hiking. I mean, we would carry him in backpacks. My son didn't like a backpack. He has been hiking since he was one and a half because he would kick me if he was in a backpack. But they've been doing that for their entire life. And so we would post all of our pictures and women would be we wish we could do what you do. And we finally asked the question, Well, why don't you? One of the reasons was we don't feel physically fit enough. And then the other reason was we don't know anybody to go with. And so we built our business around those two main answers where Sierra has her personal training certification through NASM. And so we do a couch to mountain top program to get people in the functional fitness to where they are able to do the things that they want to do, be able to get off the couch and go up to the top of the mountain. If a marathon running is something that you want to do, she'll even work with that kind of a program to get you ready to go, but just get you up and be there with you to make sure you meet your goals. And so then when we got her all set up with what her part of our business was going to be, the question was, what is my part going to be? What is my main part going to be? Well, we decided that if we were going to be doing this and going out into the back country, we needed somebody that could deal with any potential dangers that would happen or injuries or anything like that. And a friend of ours had shown me backcountry medicine for wilderness CMT, and I got registered for that. And when I got back to Montana and settled, there was a Billboard in East, Missoula that said, Come join the East, Missoula fire Department, the volunteer fire Department. And so I'm generally nuts most of the time anyway. And so 35 years old, and I decide that joining the volunteer fire Department is a good idea. Sounds like a good plan. Well, and then I got there and I fell in love with it. East Mozula is a 24 hours volunteer fire Department that is staffed, and you don't find a volunteer Department that staff 24 hours. So that was very unique. Training was every single Monday, and it was intense training and then not as intense, obviously, as a professional fire Department. But they did get their training in on both EMS side and fireside. And there was so much that I brought from the fire Department that I absolutely loved. And once I got into it, if I were younger, when I found out that I got into that, I would have gone professional fire all the way. Interesting. Wow. It's just something that you fit right into. I just fell in love with it. And there was a lot of reasons for that one. I'm in a Department where there's a bunch of 20 year old kids that are volunteering up to 40 hours a week of their life volunteering that's on top of schooling, that's on top of their jobs, that they're working to cover their payments. And then coming and volunteering at a fire Department and taking care of a community. And I was so impressed. Those people are truly passionate about what they're doing. Obviously, there's no other reason to be in EMS, right. So I just want to take it back to. So when did your husband pass away? It was November 19, 2015, 2015. So then you took off back to Georgia. Was Georgia a place that you went because of family and friends that were there support system. I was born in North Georgia. My parents were military, and my dad and my stepmom have been living there for 20 years, a little more than 20 years at this point. And it was kind of a comfortable escape. It was a place where I knew so many people in the town that I lived in. I lived in Kalisville, and it was one of those things where you walk in the grocery store and somebody knows what happened. And so you get that look. And I didn't want that look anymore. And my kids and I needed a place to go and kind of figure out who we were without him anymore. So you came back to Montana. How many years later did you say, how long have you been back? I made it eleven months in Georgia. Before you realized you had to get back to Montana. Once you live in Montana, no other place you can't live anywhere else? No. And it was funny, too, because as soon as I told everybody I was moving to Georgia, they started casting lots on how long it would take for me to come back. That's hilarious. Do you remember what the shortest amount of time was? The shortest guess? Well, I had planned for three years, and I think my best friend, I'm giving it six months. So where is Sierra from? Does she live in Montana? Is that where she's from? Sierra's born and raised in Missoula. Okay. And Sierra and I actually met at Church. My husband was a little iffy about meeting new people, and for reasons I won't go into at the moment. But he was a little bit iffy about meeting new people. And so we didn't. And then Jeff had a logging accident. It was pretty severe. He had all of the vertebrae in his spine were fractured, and my husband really had a lot of things happen to him. But all the vertebrae in his spine were fractured. All the ribs in his back were broken, both of his shoulder blades. So he wasn't. Needless to say, he was in the hospital for a very long time. And so when he went into PT, the Church had contacted Sierra and Lincoln. Lincoln was Sierra's husband at the time and said, hey, this is going on. If you wouldn't mind, like, if you'd like to, it would be nice for you to go down and just sit there with them and talk and give them some company. And so Lincoln went down and Jeff and he started off a really good relationship. And so then after that, we were pretty much inseparable. So we've been friends now. Ailen was four months old when that happened. And we've been friends since then. And Aileen turned 13 at the beginning of May. It's been 13 years now. Once you got into working at the fire Department and you realize that this is really a path that I'd really like to go down. Did you ever imagine yourself in your life working in a high stress environment, being able to work in a high stress environment like that, dealing with blood, dealing with those types of things? Is that something that you were surprised that you could handle? I was surprised that I could deal with the blood. In fact, people in my family, my family specifically made fun of me. They're like, I don't know how you're going to be able to do this because blood is not my favorite thing. High stress is not nothing I ever worried about. I work very well under stress and being in a kitchen. And when you have the last kitchen I worked in, they gross $2 million a year. It's a high stress environment to work with a chef just to be on your toes. All the time and ready to go. So maybe the restaurant game prepared you for this. I mean, kitchens can be pretty bloody too sometimes, right? Oh, yeah. There was one day I ended up one of our dishwashers had stacked a bunch of kitchen pans up in the rack. Instead of separating them into two stacks, he stacked them really high, and I went to go get something and it knocked that entire stack up. This has got to be probably a good £30 worth of metal coming down. And like, the first thought that I had was, stop it. And so I stuck my elbow out to try to stop it and slice my elbow all the way down. There was a lot of blood. So the kitchen was preparing you for something so much bigger. Yeah. I think that my husband was one day I get a phone call and he said, Are you close? And I said, yeah, I am. And he goes, Well, do you have any pads with you? And I'm like feminine napkin pads? And he goes, yeah. And I said, yes. And he goes, Well, will you come over here? And I said, okay. And so I got there. He had sliced a chunk out of his arm with his chainsaw because his chainsaw hit a knot and kicked back, and he's got layers just opened up in his arm. And he just puts a pad on it and wraps it in duct tape and goes back to work. And I'm like, oh, my God. At what point from getting into EMS, working for the fire Department or volunteering with the fire Department, did you and Sierra decide to start this guiding company? Oh, we had made the decision to start the guiding company before I got into EMS. The only reason I got into the fire Department was to see what I was getting myself into when it came to being an EMT. So I had already registered for my class at ARY Back country medicine here in Missoula. And I just kind of wanted to know what I was getting myself into and kind of prepare myself. So I jumped onto there and then fell in love with it. And then from there after I got my service and I learned what keeping them all of the licensing and everything taken care of and the CES that you have to have. So that's when I made the decision that working for a company to be on my toes was going to be the best way to just keep me prepared for the backcountry. Got it. Okay. So what all does your guiding company include? You do more than backpack guiding, correct. We do. So Sierra is a certified climbing guide as well. And so we also love to cross country ski, and we love to travel. So we go to different places and the pandemic kind of botched that obviously with a lot of other things. But we went to Bolivia in 2019 and trekked Austria Peak. And we had planned on going to bands last year, but we had to postpone it until next year and do a cross country ski trip. And it will be four days of cross country skiing and then a day in Calgary as well. So even guiding in other countries, then in other States as well. I see. How does it work when it comes to getting licenses to go and do a guide trip in Bolivia. So we hired a guide in Bolivia. Our main focus on doing the Bolivia trip was being there for the people that wanted to do it, but were not comfortable with going by themselves, not comfortable with hiring a guy that they didn't know. So two of the women are the two women that we took to Bolivia. Both of them were single women. Well, they were only going by themselves, and so they wanted to have a little bit more of a safety net. And so basically, we were their safety net. So we prepared the entire trip. We made sure that we had a guide on that trip. We made sure that we had a place to stay on that trip. We went into Bolivia in a political turmoil. Oh, no. So it happened the day before we went in. It was a presidential election that ended up going south. And so we went into riots and blocking streets. It was nice having everybody was kind of together and they didn't feel uncomfortable. And it was pretty interesting. We had the windows open and had tear gas coming into our windows, and we had to shut those. Wow. That's crazy. Wow. So your website? I'm just reading directly from your website. It says Mountain Mama's Outfitter is dedicated to getting you outside and seeing what the wilderness can do for you. Let Mountain Mama get you somewhere you may not have on your own. You really want to inspire people and get people comfortable with getting into the Woods and experiencing that even if they have never done it before, giving them a new experience. How important is the Woods, the solitude of the mountains, nature being out in nature in your life. Personally, I would say probably one of the most important things in my life. And to show my kids it's hard work. It's not something that's easy to do, especially if you're backpacking. Let me go back to this weekend. So this weekend, I took the kids out for a backpacking trip, and we were planning on backpacking out by a waterfall and the amount of deadfall that was down we couldn't get to. We couldn't get to the waterfall, but they were. So let's push forward. Let's see where we can get to. And I love that. I love the fact that they want to go further. They got super excited about finding morels. And so then it ended up being just a trip about finding what we could. We saw a beautiful Hawk we saw a snake in the Bitter roots. It's really cool because you could be on the same trail and it just changes all the way through. And so you see all the differences in even just one Valley. And I love being able to share that with the kids, but it teaches you about failure. It teaches you about turning around when something's not right. It teaches you about paying attention to your own body because if you're not paying attention to your body and not paying attention to the needs and it could cause problems while you're in the back country. And there's so many different lessons. And that's why I think it's a big deal for me and the solitude as well. It is about the solitude and getting away from your devices and adversity builds so much character. If you go through life without putting yourself into situations that are challenging, your character is just not going to grow and you're going to end up becoming stagnant. I would assume that the wilderness was a place to help you heal after your husband passed away as well. It has been a place to help me heal in a lot of different things that have happened in my life, just being able to go out and hike and think and reflect. Yeah, let's discuss mental health in the first responder community because it's such a huge problem in the community. And obviously you and Sierra have become passionate about that specifically. And you have a guide trip that's coming up in just a few days and you're going to be taking a group of first responders into the mountains. You have a counselor or multiple counselors that are going to be coming along to help support, getting them out in nature and just talking through some issues. Tell me a little bit about that side of your company and why that's so important to you. I'm definitely a believer in things happen for a reason. This was such a God thing in every single way because the business itself falling into EMS and falling into this kind of use for the trails that we have in the Bitter route. So we have ten trails in the Bitter route, and we do take people out for hikes and cross country ski trips and snowshoeing and backpacking and stuff like that. But there was so much more that you can do with them. And one day, well, since coming on to be a first responder, I've decided and seeing the financial side and seeing the mental health side of it and everything, I have been supporting different first responder owned and operated companies. I ordered a shirt from Led by Iron and Led by Iron as a first responder owned and operated fitness apparel company and ordered a shirt from them. And Ciara and I had been talking about doing a bike ride for a year, maybe two years already, but we wanted to do it for a reason and we had looked at different organizations and different companies, different missions that the Church even donates money to see if that. But it never ended up being something that this is what we want to do it for. And I ordered this shirt from Lead by Iron and got it in. The package was a note card about nextrung, and it talked about the suicide rate amongst first responders and what they offered. And they offer a peer to peer support hotline. So if the first responder, that's law enforcement, that's nine, one, one operators. That's our EMS firefighters, all of them. The two that started the company are firefighters, one in Atlanta and one in California. And so they have a peer to peer support hotline, which is fantastic. They also offer financial support if you need to go and seek further counseling. And then they also offer financial support to families of first responders who have lost their first responder suicide. They have a lot that they offer. And as soon as I read that card, I knew that that was. And it just so happens. Sierra was going to be at my house not very long after I got that package, and all I did was hand it to her. I handed her the card. I didn't say a word, and she's like, okay, then I knew exactly what she meant. And I contacted them. And within 30 minutes, I heard back from them and told them that what we were going to do. And so it took us a year. And we started planning, and we have a PR rep that's out of New York. And she set it up to where we got companies. So we made the decision that we were going to do this bike ride. And because of the fact that we're moms, we didn't want to go for too terribly long. So we had a month that we had set aside to where we could do this ride. And we were going from the Mexican border to the Canadian border. And so we started in San Diego and came up through Calaisville and Eureka and stopped at the Canadian border there. And throughout this trip, we stopped at different fire departments. And Tia is with Liba PR, and she's out of Stock Harbor, and she set it up. She got all of the five of the fire departments we stopped at were fed. So we stopped and sat there and gave them information and got to sit and have family style dinner with them and just chat. And I'll tell you, this took a year in planning, and we had no idea what we were doing. Even after the year of planning, we had no idea what we were getting ourselves into. And in fact, we talked with when we first got there, the fire Department, the guys at the fire Department, we're a little on edge. I mean, here's two girls walking in to a bunch of firefighters who have been doing this for years. They're like, what are they going to tell us about suicide? And so they said, do you have a presentation? Do we need to set anything up? And we're like, no, we're just here to support you. And as soon as we said that the air in the room completely lightened. We all sat down at the table and all the stories came out, and everybody was open to talking about the things that they were dealing with. And then as soon as that happened, we knew what we were doing for the rest of the trip. And we had started the San Diego Fire Department. We contacted one of the firefighters there, and we had a contact there. And he and his wife ended up setting us up for two nights. And so the first morning that we spent there, we woke up pretty early and had coffee with him. And I've had a long talk about because we weren't sure if this is the right thing to be doing. We didn't know. And as soon as I started talking with him, we knew it was a good thing. And then he and his friend Jay ended up being our partners for the first 53 miles of that trip. And one of them drove my car, and one of them took us through San Diego into the different fire departments there where we could drop off information and ended up being fantastic. And so during that trip, we stopped at five where we fed them and got to spend some time with them. And then we stopped at 15 other and dropped off information about next. Wrong. We got into Idaho. We got into Idaho and into Montana and started realizing that the stories on suicide were going down less and less. And I asked one of the firefighters in California, or I said something about it. I said that once we got into Idaho, we just really didn't hear any suicide source. And he goes, Well, it's kind of because we have all of this. If anybody knows what Calisthell is like, it's a bowl with mountains all around it. And he goes, we have all of this. And so there's Lakes everywhere, all around in Kalispell. There are hiking trails all over the place. And he goes, we all Hunt, we all fish. We all hike. We ski, we're out on the river all the time. And it made so much sense on how grounded you can get when you're out in the Woods. And then that's when we started thinking, Well, how do we use our trails for this? What can we do now to further this and also get the communities involved in the fact that they have first responders, that the mental health status on first responders is very important. So then we started doing this. And so the pandemic actually helped a little bit. It kind of slowed down some things to where we could really focus on the exact needs that we wanted to address, and it took us two years. And so next week we leave on the 11 June for a four day backpacking trip into the Woods with changes. Are you going into this with any major expectations? Are you concerned about anything specific, or are you just really excited to finally see this become a reality? I'm just excited about seeing this becoming a reality. This is the first annual we would like to do this every year. And what we're doing is trying to make it to where these first responders don't have to worry about the financial aspect of this. And so Tia with Libab has been working really hard on getting donors. She's gotten breweries in the communities of the first responders that we have to do pint nights to gain money. We don't want them to not come because of finances. And so this is completely free to them. They have a $250 commitment deposit that they get back after they have come and done the trip. That is so exciting. Aaron, I don't know if you have any specific statistics about EMS specifically first responders who as far as mental health goes. I know from some research that I was doing, they say that 37% of emergency medical service providers have contemplated suicide and 6.6 have made an actual attempt. Suicide is a major problem in the EMS world. I'm sure there's a lot of PTSD that people struggle with and feeling very alone in the space that they're in. I love the idea of Next rung and what they do, and you can go and visit their website, nextrung. Org. There's different phone numbers that you can call. You can find the support that you need. You're not alone in this. And there are people out there who want to help you. If you are a first responder and you need help, you need to talk to somebody. You need to talk through something. So I just wanted to put that out there. That's really important. So you're doing this on the 11th. You said, excellent. Are you already packed up and ready to go? Oh, no, I won't pack up until the night before. You're one of those. I see. Yeah, I'm one of those, too. My family gets after me every time. When I go to India for two months. I packed the night before, and my family is like, what are you doing? And I'm like, listen, I've got a bad memory. So if I pack two weeks before, I'm just going to tear everything out again because I'll forget what I actually put in the stupid bag. That is where I'm at keep my mind on whether or not. And if I pack the night before and I get on a plane, I just got to deal with what I got in my backpack. You do you figure it all out? Do you have your own formulated opinion on those ultralight freaks? You know, I could probably almost go ultra light. There's one thing that is not ultralight in my backpack, and that is my sleeping bag. Oh, so you're not just going to go without a sleeping bag? My sleeping bag is about just under £7 and I will not take clothes. Yeah, well, I hope you take some clothes on the body. Listen, there are other people in the wilderness. We deal with that problem. There are some people that they just need to change every single day when they're out on a trail. And I would rather have my sleeping bag. Totally. If we are an issue, I'm going to drop more clothing than I will my sleeping bag because I like to be warm. The sleeping bag is really important. I know another one. I spent a bunch of time on the Pacific Crest Trail attempting to walk from Mexico to Canada. I left with $500. I had a feeling that there was no way I was going to make it with that money. So I ended up having to stop and get random jobs along the way. And it was an interesting experience. But I learned so much out there when I left. There were so many things I didn't know. I started wearing trail runners out on the trail. That's where I learned about trail runners. And where was I going with this ultra light on the trail? People always talked about. Everybody has that one item that they bring out of comfort. Sometimes that's a pillow for somebody. Somebody feels like they really need a pillow. Some people carry a good book with them. They just want to have a good book. But, yeah, I'm one of those ultra light freaks. I love the ultra. When you become ultra light, you can always be lighter, and it's just stupid. It becomes an obsession. I go into the mountains for three or four days with a 14 pound pack, and that's not my base weight. That's with food and water. It's ridiculous. I can carry a heavy pack, too. We climb Mount Reiner, and so we do Mount Rainier regularly. So you have to carry a little more than 40 £45. That's the time that you wish you could be ultralight climbing up the snowfields and glaciers. And you're like, what am I doing? Well, I spent two weeks in Bolivia and my bag wasn't more. I think it was £33 at the airport. Wow. That's unbelievable. Yeah, that's light. Very rarely do I carry more than £30. And like I said, my sleeping bag is £7 and then I have probably a good £5 of splints and tape, and I have a couple of tourniquets I carry in my bag. Wow. So I have that kind of stuff. I have hot hands and hot feet and I have a tarp. So I carry a tarp, usually just in case. And then I have a hammock. Nice. You're a hammocker? Well, yeah. Except for when I'm in the desert. Then I have a little one man tent. Oh, sure. Yeah. It's kind of hard to hang a hammock from a Cactus or from a little Bush. How do you like the hammocking backpacking with a hammock? I tried it. I couldn't do it just because the idea of being scrunched up like a Taco was so difficult for me. I like to spread out and move. I think I figured out where my favorite spot in my hammock is, and so I sleep really well. I have a hammock, and both of my kids have hammocks. And so we've been hammock camping for the last couple of years and really enjoy that. I love what you guys are doing. It's amazing. And I'm really excited to see as you guys progress. And this becomes a yearly event this year. How many people do you have going with you? So we started out with six, and then we ended up having one that had to go into surgery, and so she doesn't get to come. So we're going with five. They're coming from all over the place. We put it up for two days in two days. I had 147 applications that we went through. Wow. And so we kept it right after that because there was already a lot. And thankfully, it got out so quickly between Savage paramedics and worst responders and next rung putting it up. It was just insane. I just could not believe the outcry. We even had people texting us how much it cost and how often we did this. And so this one we're doing with Evoke Changes outdoors. And Sean, who is the clinical counselor through Evoke Changes. I know personally, and I've known him for several years, and he's fantastic. He has Evoke Changes, which is his private counseling business, and he specializes in wilderness therapy and then Evoke Changes Outdoors, which is his nonprofit and the nonprofit is for veterans and first responders. All of the donations that we've got right now are going through changes outdoors that way, their tax deductible. Yeah. It is fantastic. He and his fiancee are the two that are coming out with us, and she has her own skills. So everybody's kind of bringing something different to the table. She deals with meditation and has been practicing in meditation for years and years. And so breathing meditation and that kind of thing. And then Sierra has her. She can take care of all of any injuries when it comes to the physical therapy part of it. And then I take care of any of the injuries right away. And so everybody kind of has their own peace that they're doing with it. And then also I was a chef for a lot of years. So I like the back country. So everybody's going to be eating extremely well. Nobody's going to be eating that mountain house. Yeah. No Bueno on the mountain house. So are you guys going to be continuing to partner with Evoke Changes outdoors? In the future. Is that just how it's stacking up this time? We would like to be able to partner with them in the future. This has been a collaborative thing, the whole all the way around. So between us and Liva PR has been the one that has doing the community outreach and all of that. And then Sierra and I have our part. We built the website and have been taken any kind. We've been fielding any questions and that kind of thing and then evoke changes outdoors is the counseling aspect of it. Got it. Okay. It has been a group effort for the last two years working through this. What is your vision for the future of Mountain Mamas outdoors and what you guys are doing? Would you like to start doing multiple of these trips every year? Do you want it to grow to 50 people or do you want to keep it relatively small? What is your vision for that? It will always stay relatively small. Doing multiple trips would be something that would be fantastic if a fire Department specifically wants to set up to send their guys to something, a retreat like this. That would be fantastic. So wilderness therapy is something that's kind of new. And Sean is really in the groundbreaking area of this kind of therapy to begin with. And so moving into more wilderness therapy. And so there's been talk about possibly having events where we take other therapists who want to learn how to do this kind of therapy into the Woods with Sean and having him kind of go through how this works and all that. Sure. And eventually working with other therapists as well. And Sean has a pretty busy practices set up as well. And then he is licensed in both Texas and Montana and so does a lot with veterans in both areas. And so I don't know, the Sky's the limit on this, really, because I am so blown away with the need and the desire of these first responders to have this kind of therapy. That's amazing. Mind blowing. And back to some of the statistics. One of the big statistics that I have found really interesting was the fact that nationally the suicide rate is only 1%. And amongst first responders, it's 8% of first responders have committed suicide. If you go to our website, which is Montana wildernessreretreat. Com, there is a paper study on the differences between EMS, paramedics, law enforcement and firefighters and the suicide rates and the attempts of suicide in that paper. And that's pretty interesting as far as statistics go. And then also the statistics on female suicide amongst first responders is higher. Why do you think that is so in the study? I think it goes into a little bit of females being. I mean, this is not necessarily something that females have done for a long time. If you go back into the even on an ambulance, if you look into some articles about what a woman's place on an ambulance was. So just trying to fit into the field depending on where you are, you have so many different expectations on you. And I honestly think that, too. And this is my own opinion. I'm not getting this from anywhere else, but you have more expectations for yourself as well when you go into a field like this. And I think that puts a lot of pressure onto the females on top of everything, like all the expectations of their male counterparts, because we do want to succeed and we want to do very well at our job. And we're going into this kind of a field for a reason. And so I think that's why maybe the suicide rate is a little bit higher for females. And I think it does go into that a little bit in that study with the website again, MountainWilderness, it's montanawildernessreach. Com. And if you go into there, there's a study. It talks about the wilderness retreat that we're doing. And if you want to donate and have it as a tax deduction, then we will do that a different way. Got it. I'm really excited about this. If somebody wants to get involved in some way, or if somebody wants to join you on one of your retreats, would this be the best way for them to contact you is to go to montanawilderanceretreatee. Com? No. They can email me at Aaron at Mountain Mamas outfitter. Com. Aaron at Mountain mamazoutfitter. Com. Yes. Okay. And that's E-R-I-N. It's E-R-I-N. For those of you out there who are just not sure it's E-R-I-N. And I'm A-R-O-N. So we've got two errands out here on the podcast today. Erin, we're a good bunch. We're decent human beings. So is there anything else that you'd like to share before we wrap up this podcast? So as far as adding a couple of things, I just want to put out the fact that we really want that awareness of what your first responders do for you. Another statistic. I guess 80% of our EMS in the United States is volunteer. Oh, really? So if you think about it, all of the rural communities, they are all volunteer, even our rural Department here in rural fire Department. Fantastic organization. They are half volunteer, half volunteer, half professional firefighters. The reason why it's such a big deal to help out with the mental status of our first responders is they are not getting compensated for this. They're not getting compensated for their services. And they're coming out to some of the worst things that anybody can see. I know my wife, Lexi, she worked with you. She's a paramedic. And we talk about this, especially during this time of Coronavirus. So many people, mainstream media people are talking about our nurses who are on the front lines. But there's not a whole lot of talk about the people who are actually entering the house that's full of trash waiting through the trash, pulling the person out of their own feces and hauling them to the hospital. I mean, that is really out there on the front lines, and that's just EMS that's not even talking about what all the police officers are having to go through during this time and all the firefighters, and it's just an incredible community. And these people care deeply. They love deeply. And there is a reason why people are in this, but we need to support our first responders, and we need to show them the love and the care that they deserve and that they need. And this is not something that you can go home and talk to people about it all the time. Unfortunately, my boyfriend is a veteran, and he has been just as bad of things as I have, if not worse. Well, probably worse on most occasions, but not everybody has that not everybody has a support that they can go home to and talk about things because they don't want to share that with their spouse. And it's something that it's the funniest thing, because I don't think I've ever met a group of people who feel more. So I'm going to maybe get a little bit tearry on this because all of these people that I've worked with, all of the first responders that I've met, they just have a passion. And you have to because you don't make very much money in this business. I'm sorry. No, that's okay. I knew when I married my wife, being in the work that she's in, I really have a special one. It needs to be recognized. And it's something that isn't recognized enough. And I will talk about I am not a paramedic. I'm an EMT, so Thankfully, I don't have to make decisions like Lexi has to make. I do not have a desire to be a paramedic because I have my passion being in the outdoors. But I was on a call where there was a baby involved in 23 months old. So you still technically consider them a baby. And the impact that that call had on me for two years, like it has taken a long time for me to really come over the top of that call, especially since I'm a mom myself, and I'm very empathetic, which sometimes I was wondering if that was going to be my downfall for this kind of work. But come to find out because I did ask one day, I said, I don't know how I'm ever going to not feel on some of these calls. And he goes, You're not ever supposed to stop feeling. And that was probably one of the most profound, simplest answers to that question that you could ever have. But you can't stop feeling because then you don't move forward on it. And so when it came to that paramedic that I was working with on that call, just seeing his response and his reaction. And everybody deals with all of their own emotional stuff differently. And some people keep it in. And some people talk a lot more about it. But when it comes to the empathy side, I think first responders are probably some of the most empathetic people you'll ever meet. And it doesn't matter if they have to. If they only get paid $15 an hour, they're still going to be there for you. And they have some of the best bedside manner. There's been so many times where we can't do anything on the ambulance except for hold their hand, and that's what you do. You hold their hand and make sure that there is. If you can make that fear go down even in the slightest, you've done your job. So it's definitely a different world. And I think community awareness is such a big deal because you don't think about it until you do. You don't think about it until one day your mom is on the floor and you have to call 911 or your child is on the floor and you have to call nine, one, one. But they're going to be there, whether or not they're being paid for it or not, they're going to be there. And so I think that's where I am so much more passionate than I ever thought I would be. I can tell that you're so proud to be a part of the community. I just thank you for what you do. And thank you for all of the EMS workers out there, the first responders who are out there who show up when the community calls. That's incredible. And like you said, it's something that we don't think about because we are just so used to making that call and somebody shows up. Somebody always shows up beyond grateful to the people who are out there working 24/7 to keep our communities safe and to save the lives of so many people and to be there to hold the hand of that person in the back of the ambulance. I think this is kind of an interesting thing to share. I don't know if you've ever heard how EMS started, actually, did you know EMS was not started by hospitals? I did not take a guess of who EMS was started by? I would have no idea the community. I don't know the Department of Transportation, really. And it was started in the 70s. So EMS is a baby. It's not something that's been. And they used to just send that's. Why? Okay, if you look way back in the day, what an ambulance used to look like it was a hearse because they used to just send herses out there. Wow. And so EMS was started by the Department of Transportation in order to try because of all of the accidents that were happening. I did not know that. So I guess another thing, like most ambulance companies in the United States are privately owned. There's not very many that are actually hospital owned. They're all privately owned. I'm glad you bring that up, because that's really important for people to understand, because a lot of fire departments are owned by the city. Right. So fire departments are federally owned, federally owned with fire departments, you can get grants. And that's how all the volunteer fire departments have the ability to purchase the things that they can get. So fire departments are paid solely by your tax money. And the fire Department has so many different. So when they come out with Levies, trying to make sure to have enough money to fund the salaries of the fire departments and fund all of the trucks and everything like that, take into consideration the fact that all of these towns are growing and they need the money to be able to staff them. So it's June 1. And just our ambulance company alone has run almost 5000 calls already, and we're small, like we're a smaller town compared to Las Vegas or San Diego, where they have multiple ambulance companies. But the fire departments, they're running off of grants, and they're going to be a lot of times every like, okay. So an ambulance runs with two people on it, and then fire truck runs with three. When you think about that, sometimes we're hauling out 400 pound people and we need help. And so there's no way the two of us are going to be able to get it. And sometimes it takes all five people to be able to get that person out. So Kalisville is having some issues with Levies are being denied, and the fire Department isn't getting the money to staff the way that they need to. And so that's kind of an interesting. That's a whole other story. But that's an interesting situation. But just thinking about the fact that when that comes up in your thought process to make sure you realize that, hey, when I need to call 911, I would like them to be there. I would like to fund that fire Department to make sure that they are there when I need them. And that goes for volunteer fire departments, too, depending on where that is, they don't have a call volume enough to where they don't keep a staff on it. But I have never come across a volunteer fire Department that isn't there pretty quick as soon as their pages come off. Yeah. Well, that's really important for people to understand. A lot of fire departments, they're being paid by your taxes as well as the police Department. So it's very different when it comes to ambulance services. And that's something I had no idea about until Lexi started explaining that to me. I didn't know. And I'm sure most people out there have no idea that that's the case. And I think that's a big thing to kind of explain one piece of equipment that we have on our ambulance that's called a life pack. It's like a $25,000 piece of equipment, and that's not including everything else. I mean, that's a pretty major part of some things that we do. That's the AED, that's the checking your heart on twelve leads and being able to transmit the fact that we've got a patient that's having a STEMI to the hospital is a big thing because being able to have that team ready to go as soon as that person comes through the door because they already see the STEMI on the transmission. It's significant. And so it is such a beautiful intertwined. There's definitely childish fights and arguments and stuff like that between everybody. But everybody works together, for the most part, very well. The Ed, the fire Department, EMS. I feel like it's a well oiled machine that just needs to keep getting oil. It really helps when everybody has a common goal, right? And that common goal is saving lives and being there. And so that's something that you all have in common. And so even though there might be some strange childish fights going on and some things in the background, at the end of the day, you're all trying to do the same thing. I shouldn't even call it childish fights. I should say it's a family unit that has arguments. Sometimes we're not going to use the term child. Let's just get rid of the term child and move into family arguments. Do you feel like a family when it comes to the people that you work with, you really feel like you're a tight knit family in a way, you know, I do. I definitely do. Everybody has their moments where they need to get away from each other. But for the most part, everybody has your back. I'll go back to that case. That really hit me hard. And everybody that was there knew that this was going to be a very difficult call for me because of the fact that I am a mom. And when we got back to the station, they had my ambulance cleaned. I didn't even have to do anything. They were already at the hospital making sure that I didn't have to go through all of the stuff that had been done in the back of the ambulance, because with me being the driver and not the paramedic, I'm going to go back and I'm going to be the one that cleans it. And so they already had that done for me. I came out of the hospital and it was taken care of. And then I got back there and they made sure that I was okay. And for some reason, food is a big deal when you're in. So if anything bad happens, you go and eat, making sure that they're like, you want to go get something to eat? Do you want a burrito? What should we go do and just making sure that I could get my mind off of it and not be dwelling on it right away because it's something that you're going to dwell on, but getting out of it for a few moments and being able to reposition yourself and get back into your job. It was very nice having everybody kind of just surround you. Yeah. Thinking of food, it makes me think about how my wife can eat food. Eating food while watching something gory is very easy for her to do. It's like sitting there and snacking next to the puddle of blood or whatever. I've seen people eating their breakfast burritos on the way to a call that doesn't sound like it's going to be a great call at all. Sounds like it'll be pretty gory, and they're just eating their breakfast burrito on the way and getting ready. And you kind of have to put yourself out of the mental state in order to do that, too. There's some people that like to listen to music really loud when getting ready to go a call. And so there are certain songs that I had a paramedic that there were certain songs that if he was getting ready to go to a gunshot wound, he wanted to play, that's what he would play on the radio before we got just to kind of get in that mental state. Yeah, I really enjoyed this conversation, but I think we'll wrap it up. So again, guys, if you want to reach out to Aaron Aaron at Mountain mamazitters. Com, you can also go to the website, mountainwildernessmontanarewildernessretreat. Com and, yeah, get a hold of Aaron, see how you can get involved. See how if you're a first responder, see how maybe you can join one of the one of the backpacking trips in the future, that would be amazing. That would be amazing. Yeah. Aaron, thank you for being on the podcast. I'm going to let you go. I know you have a lot going on, but once again, thank you for being on the podcast. Yeah. And we'll talk to everybody next time. If you've made it to the end. Thank you for sticking around. I encourage you to go listen to some of the other episodes. We have so many amazing episodes that we've put out, and it just keeps getting better. Everyone. So get out there and check out what we have. We hope that you've been inspired and you continue to be inspired by what we're trying to do here until next time. We will rather we'll see you next time on the Simply Overcoming podcast.